Dating Daycare
Welcome to "Dating Daycare," the ultimate safe space for women navigating the unpredictable world of modern dating. Join hosts Melissa Firpo and Allison Waterman as they dish out candid advice, share hilarious anecdotes, and tackle the toughest dating dilemmas faced by women today.
In a dating landscape filled with frogs disguised as princes and a jungle of jerks, Melissa and Allison offer a nurturing haven where women can laugh, learn, and empower each other to find love on their own terms. From ghosting to breadcrumbing, from disastrous first dates to navigating online profiles, "Dating Daycare" covers it all with wit, wisdom, and plenty of wine.
With Melissa's no-nonsense approach and Allison's comedic charm, each episode feels like a heart-to-heart chat with your best girlfriends over brunch. Whether you're swiping left or swiping right, "Dating Daycare" is your go-to guide for surviving and thriving in the wild world of modern romance.
So grab your favorite beverage, kick back, and join Melissa and Allison as they navigate the highs, lows, and hilarities of dating life. Because when it comes to matters of the heart, everyone could use a little TLC from "Dating Daycare.
Dating Daycare
SPECIAL GUESTS: Attorneys Alisa & Carolyn - The Essential Guide to Prenups and Divorce Preparation
Prepare for a deep dive into the nuances of love, law, and financial foresight with the insightful minds of Alisa J. Geffner and Carolyn D. Kersch
from the renowned boutique matrimonial and family law firm, Geffner Kersch. We unravel the often overlooked importance of prenuptial agreements, particularly for women poised to marry into wealth. Through the lens of a real-life prenup negotiation, we're offering listeners a front-row seat to the world of asset distribution and alimony, underscoring the crucial need for informed, professional legal advice over the often misleading opinions found on social media.
Our conversation takes a prudent turn as we explore the financial layers of marriage—delving into the protective measures of both prenuptial and postnuptial agreements. Understand the potential for familial financial contributions to reshape property claims in divorce and navigate the emotional and legal intricacies surrounding engagement rings and family heirlooms. We’re arming you with the knowledge to manage these delicate matters with grace and foresight, offering a roadmap to avoid common financial pitfalls and ensure your marital journey is securely grounded in mutual understanding and agreement.
As we shift gears, essential life skills take center stage. From recognizing red flags in romantically charged relationships to maintaining financial independence, we're spotlighting the importance of self-worth and independence for young women. Discover the courage it takes to prioritize your own needs over societal expectations, and learn how to effectively prepare for the complexities of custody battles and divorce mediation. With an emphasis on securing a stable future, this episode provides a strategic approach to navigating the challenging yet transformative terrains of love and separation.
Learn more about Family Law attorneys at Geffner Kersch at www.geffnerkersch.com
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Welcome to Dating Daycare. I'm Melissa and we are here to help you navigate through the jungle of jerks. So, ladies, today I'm really excited and gents, whoever's listening we have today Giffner Kirsch with us today.
Speaker 2:Alisa Giffner and I'm Carolyn Kirsch and they are from. We're from Garden City, we're from Gaffner Kirsch. It's a boutique matrimonial and family law firm, so we handle everything under that umbrella, from divorce, custody, change of custody, child support modifications, grandparent visitation and everything in between.
Speaker 1:So I am super excited to have this episode. I think it is going to be so helpful to so many women out there, because I see so many different questions on the internet and Facebook and different groups getting divorced are we dating the same guy? And I think it's going to be great to have actual lawyers, you know, instead of asking strangers. Be it, you know the audience of Facebook. I think it would be great to have these women have the real answers. So what should we start out with?
Speaker 2:ladies Well you had discussed with us, maybe just giving some general advice that most women should be aware of.
Speaker 3:Yeah, great and I thought you know a first topic that would be good to start with is the beginning, right, the beginning when you're getting married. Okay so ladies.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's for all the engaged women. So listen up, get your glass of Chardonnay or your vodka or whatever you need, and listen up, because now we're going to start at the beginning, when you get engaged.
Speaker 3:Right, okay, so you know, sometimes we hear whether you want a prenup, whether I should get a prenup, or you're presented with a prenup and what that really means about the fact that you could really sort of tell a lot about your fiance by that type of conversation and the possible negotiation that comes into doing a prenup. So you know, I had a situation recently where the bride was presented with a prenuptial agreement. The groom was more on the wealthier side, he had a significant job, he had a significant assets that he had accumulated and wanted her to sign a prenuptial agreement. And she was totally fine with that and it was presented to her. And but you know, once you get into the legalese of it and you realize you have to, what you have to consider, you know you're unfortunately, unfortunately sort of negotiating what would happen in a divorce before you even married. Correct, and that can become.
Speaker 3:You know, once you're hearing from an attorney well, did you consider this? Did you consider that and the you know originally you're going to get this document and you're going to get a more aggressive position, but then you have to understand that you can then in kind negotiate from there. And in this particular situation that I was discussing. I enlightened her a lot about it and she took reasonable position. She didn't go to the other side of being I want everything then or I want it all. She took very reasonable positions, but every reasonable position it was like no, it was like a take it or leave it situation. And you're marrying this person and you're investing in it, so that says a lot about him Right.
Speaker 3:So they were going to have a house. They were looking in a more affluent area of Long Island, on the North Shore, to buy a house. She's coming from somewhere different, so was he, and they were going to start a life. But this house was going to be in his name only. Who was paying for it? He was going to pay for it. It was going to be in his name only, so she was putting no money towards the house. No, but on the same thing, you go to Roslyn, manhasset, great Neck, all these areas. You start a family right Now. Your kids go there, your kids are in the schools there, you're entrenched in the lifestyle there and the friendships there. If you don't have something in your prenuptial agreement that provides for you, Like alimony, because you waive it, alimony assets in your name, things like that.
Speaker 3:If the kids are there, how are you going to now move them to somewhere? Uproot them? Uproot them to something completely different.
Speaker 1:That it just that you can now afford because you have nothing, because you've been a stay-at-home mom for 15 years, right got it.
Speaker 3:So that became a real reality to her. We had a couple of zooms over you know hours and just explaining to her like these real situations, like I just said to you and you're like, I never really thought of it like that. Yeah, now I'm there. So she had asked certain things about maybe putting the house in both names, creating some assets and some security.
Speaker 1:Or up the ante on the alimony and child support so that and then you would have to decide well, let's just say, today the house is $1.5 million in the taxes or whatever, but 10 years from now, when you get so, what the alimony and child support would be today cannot be in there. It has to be greater than to go with right.
Speaker 3:Well, child support would not be included because prenuptial agreements. There's no children that exist yet, so you can't even add that. So you would decide that at that time. But the alimony to your point, the alimony if there's a waiver and or awards assets and equitable distribution Right right.
Speaker 3:Or a payout, at least some kind of payout If you're looking at someone who has millions of dollars. At least you get something. And we do do inflation adjustments because you know, like to that point. So, wound up, that negotiation opened her eyes. I had sent something over there and at this point they're not moving forward yet.
Speaker 1:So and good for her. So and here's another question I have Legally, are all your assets that you come to the marriage with yours when you leave, for instance? Let me give an example I'm doing basic, I'm driving a Mercedes, I own my own home and I have $250,000 in my bank account. We're getting married next week when we leave the marriage. If, in fact, I still have that car and that house and didn't sell it, well, can they fight for those things that you had before you went to the marriage, or is that yours? Do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:Well, in a prenuptial agreement. So just taking just one step back, just basic matrimonial law. Anything that you acquire from date of marriage to the date you commence a divorce proceeding is marital property. Title is not determinative. So if you have a prenuptial agreement that says anything in the husband's name belongs to the husband, irregardless of whether or not it was acquired during the marriage, then you are basically forfeiting and giving up some marital property.
Speaker 1:Whams if we don't have a prenup like a lot of people Right.
Speaker 3:Questions from prior. Things from prior.
Speaker 2:Right. So the answer is if you have a home before the date of marriage, it's, by definition, separate property, meaning it is not subject to distribution. But there are some gray areas. So if you have a mortgage and you're using marital money to pay down your separate property, mortgage, claims could be made toward that. Some claims could be made towards real estate taxes. What if you improve the property? What if you take $100,000 of marital money and put on a second floor? So there are gray areas that, if those are things you're anticipating doing, you could handle in a prenuptial agreement. Okay.
Speaker 1:So, ladies, gents, before you get married, go to a lawyer, if you're presented, and think about now, how much does it cost for a basic? We're not talking about the multimillionaire coming to you, we're talking for our average population. Here People get married, married their early 20s and 30s. They're just getting out of college, they're starting your basic prenup. How much would it cost one of the viewers to come to you and draw up? You know, an easy one, not one with a million assets and millions of dollars.
Speaker 3:Well, the drawing up of it is usually relatively simple, no matter what, and that can range anywhere from about $4,000 to $7,500 to $10,000, depending, like you said, on that. It's whether or not that then gets negotiated, and you know we bill as our hours go, but I try to keep everything relatively. We both try to keep things pretty conservative for people, whether it's drafting, you know, a prenuptial agreement or going through a divorce. We're very mindful of that. I will say you had said something about ladies, or you want a prenup, even if you're not considering a prenup and I had just written a blog about this on our website it's important to know, just, you make financial decisions when you're getting married, right, you're planning a wedding, so you're spending money on that. You're getting an engagement ring. What happens with that?
Speaker 3:There are just other things that you might want to consider, and one example that we just recently had or discussed was let's say, you're planning a wedding and your wedding's going to be $50,000, $100,000. And then you're also going to purchase your first house, right, so sometimes family members will help thousand dollars. And then you're also going to purchase your first house, right, so sometimes family members will help. You know you have parents on both sides, that might contribute to various different things. If they contribute let's say your parents give fifty thousand dollars towards the wedding- a lot of time.
Speaker 1:The women's parents pay for the wedding and the men's parents pay for the what is it, the um down payment on the house, or even the dinner with the rehearsal dinner. But let's say that the groom's parents say I'll give the down payment on the house, or even the dinner, the rehearsal dinner, the rehearsal dinner.
Speaker 3:But let's say that the groom's parents say I'll give you the down payment for the house.
Speaker 2:Sounds like a great idea, right, no To me it doesn't.
Speaker 1:It's not, but you know me, my audience knows me. Oh no, it doesn't.
Speaker 2:But that's the point.
Speaker 1:It's not point. But a lot of brides would say oh my God, my parents don't have money. How generous of you.
Speaker 2:Or right. But what happens is if you divorce you can't get money back for that wedding that your parents paid for or your dress or any of those things. But the groom's family who put money toward the house, they would have a claim, a separate property claim to the amount of money that was put down. And most people don't know that. And we have tons of people that come into our office and have this marital residence and they're completely dumbfounded to find that some of that money that they thought was a gift to the two of them, that now their spouse well, their spouse can get that off the top.
Speaker 3:So basically grooms like let's just call him joe. Um, joe's parents write him a check for fifty thousand dollars. He puts it in his own bank account before the marriage. It's his own money, right? He then contributes it to the joint house. He can get that fifty thousand back first before you split it.
Speaker 1:So he would get that fifty thousand back. When we're getting divorced and he moves out of my house, I would owe him that 50, or when I sell the house.
Speaker 3:If you guys decide upon divorce that you have to sell it because you're going to have to deal with that house either a buyout or a sale. Let's say you guys Clams that the house is in my name.
Speaker 2:Well, that's a different story. That was kind of your first fact set. So we're talking about you're getting a house you're putting money in.
Speaker 2:I understand If it at your separate property, but if he takes his separate money and infuses it into your marital home for an improvement, he's going to have some claim to that. Now you're kind of muddying the waters. So, absent some type of agreement, a prenuptial agreement or a postnuptial agreement, which would be after you marry to that point and that asset claims could be made. So you have to be careful. And, as Elisa said in the beginning, the engagement ring everyone wants to know about their engagement ring.
Speaker 1:Whose is it?
Speaker 2:It's a gift in contemplation of marriage. So if you get married. It belongs to the bride, even upon divorce. If the wedding does not come to fruition and is called off, the engagement ring needs to be returned.
Speaker 1:What happens if you're married? You have the ring for 10, 15 years and then you get divorced. Whose is it? The bride's still yes.
Speaker 3:It's the bride's, because you got married. But what I pointed out is let's say that the groom gave grandma's engagement ring from like 18, 22. Here we go, right.
Speaker 1:I hate that, I know I'm offending a lot of people out here, but that bothers me, but go on.
Speaker 3:That bothers you.
Speaker 1:It bothers, I mean, unless that thing's a nine-carat rock sitting in a vault somewhere it bothers me, unless it's from the Titanic. You know why you know why it bothers me? And oh, is this going to stir? You know how I love to stir up the pot. It bothers me because I feel like, once again, unless it is this fabulous ring that is just doing an injustice, sitting in the vault, because grandma died 50 years ago and no one can see this gorgeous, huge thing.
Speaker 1:Okay, I feel like the mother then is giving it to the son. She's not charging him for the ring. It's like a freebie. It's like here's your grandmother's ring because you can't afford to do better or go out and get one. And here, here you go, I'll help you out, here you go. Now, why don't you then buy her her engagement ring? Put in a little effort, save a little, pick out something she would like, because who says she's going to like what grandma's ring was from 30 years ago? The shapes of the diamonds and the trends change all the time. And then, for her birthday, if you got to get rid of grandma's ring, so bad. Oh, when she gives birth, there's a push gift. Give her the grandmother's, you know ring.
Speaker 3:But the no, but if you get grandma's ring as an engagement ring. It's now yours. Mother-in-law never gets it back she lost it to the bride.
Speaker 3:she lost it to the bride because it's now your separate property, whereas gifts given to spouses during marriage are marital property. So if you got that tennis bracelet for your push gift or something like that, it's a marital property. So he could potentially get the push gift back, but he couldn't get the engagement ring back. So your mother-in-law would be like Knocking, coming up from the grave Saying I want my ring back, and you say give me something for it, because it's mine.
Speaker 1:And that's why, ladies, if you're lucky enough that your lovely husbands out there have given you some big rocks, you give that to your daughter, right? You don't give it to your son, you give it to your daughter, keep it in the family.
Speaker 3:So you think it's okay then if, if I have a daughter who is going to get married, I go to my daughter's boyfriend and give her the grandma's ring to get. That's still a freebie, right it?
Speaker 1:still is a freebie. I mean, give it to her as an extra Right.
Speaker 3:Like you know what?
Speaker 1:I'm saying, like you have a beautiful, like five, six-carat rock, give it. You know, when you get older you're 80, you're 85, your daughter is responsible, she give it. You know, when you get older you're 80, you're 85, your daughter is responsible. She's, you know, has her children. You pass it down to your daughter and you say now switch on and off. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:When you're going to the bigger party wear the six carat and then, when you're roaming around the supermarket, wear the other one, I don't know but, um, you know when you, and then give it to your daughter when you, when you, and keep you know what.
Speaker 2:I mean as an extra yeah.
Speaker 1:As like a piece of jewelry.
Speaker 2:But the funny part, where it gets a little muddied and we don't see it all the time, is if you lose your engagement ring and then you have a rider on your home and you have to replace it.
Speaker 3:Well, now there's going to be it might not be your own separate Right to replace it.
Speaker 2:Well, now there's going to be your own separate. Now it's probably going to be a marital asset because you're using your, you know. So arguments could be or an upgrade.
Speaker 1:So you have your engagement ring.
Speaker 2:You're married now 15 years and you want an upgrade. You're putting in marital money. You know that's going to change it.
Speaker 1:Now it changes the oh good thing. You know what Things that may the average right Person on the street isn't a lawyer would never think of. So thank, okay, that's great, all right. So now we've been over the prenups, go see a lawyer before you get married and just discuss these things, because, ladies, you never know.
Speaker 3:You never know right, right and on top of that, you know, just piggybacking off of the prenuptial agreement thing and like waiving assets and everything we were all talking about just taking accountability in your marriage, you know. So now you're married and you have certain decisions that might have to be made because you're going to start having a family and maybe one person has to stay home, the other person has to.
Speaker 3:You know, go to work and you have that stay at home mom situation. You know, go to work and you have that stay at home mom situation and what we find in our office a lot is that you have to be careful how you position yourself in a marriage and how you and what controls you will. You know relinquish during that time and decisions that are made, and you know hindsight's 2020 when it comes to that and you don't realize that maybe making these certain decisions can have real big implications Because you know, look, nobody wants to get divorced. People are committed.
Speaker 1:You don't get married and say I'm marrying this guy because I know in 10 years we're going to get divorced, right, I mean, who does that? Everybody, not everybody. Some, most people get married thinking this is going to be forever right so.
Speaker 3:But a lot of those decisions get made at the very beginning of marriage.
Speaker 1:Right, you get married right when it's all happy and good, ladies right right.
Speaker 3:So you know we have. You just have to be cautious. You know, when you are that in the position where you are maybe the stay-at-home mom and you decide to forego your career or dial down your career, you know you have women who are very successful. We've all you know. Go to school. We go to, maybe even law school, college. We have these degrees, we're going to. This is the time when you can flourish in your career. But you make that choice about the children because your biological clock's ticking.
Speaker 1:Right, right, absolutely.
Speaker 3:And then you sort of set that back.
Speaker 2:I mean, we always kind of say you just have to make sure that you're putting yourself in a good position. So, even if you are a stay-at-home mom, you know we have plenty of people who come in very wealthy marital estate but now they want to retain a divorce attorney and they don't even have the funds to put up. They don't have a credit card of their own to pay a retainer fee, and then we as the lawyers have to reach out to the other side and hopefully get the money for our client.
Speaker 2:And if that's a no which a lot of people would say initially my wife wants to divorce me, no, I'm not giving her money for her attorney Then we have to file an application, which means you were not able to pay your lawyer up front, or you have to borrow from family members, friends, and it's not a good situation. So our advice is just to be your own best advocate. Take some accountability and just be smart and always plan for that rainy day. So if you are in that situation, take some money. Make sure you have an account of your own that has money in it. It's still going to be marital property at the end of the day if you get divorced, but at least you have liquidity. You have a way to make ends meet.
Speaker 2:We have a lot of people that come into our office and once the divorce is filed, the breadwinner stops paying the bills, and now you're kind of in a bind. So at least you want to have that cushion where you could pay your mortgage. You can do what you need to until your lawyer is able to get into court to obtain relief for you. Right, you don't want to be a sitting duck. You need to kind of plan ahead and, as Elisa says, you know it doesn't have to be sneaky. You know some people will have their own pishka. You know on the side and learned it from you. Did I pronounce it correctly?
Speaker 3:I don't even say that word, right, I get it from her. My mother says it all the time.
Speaker 2:But you might say, hey, just so you know, I'm going to take $500 or $1,000 a week and I'm going to put it away and I'm going to put in a savings account in my name, just so you have some money that you're amassing too, because I'm sure he has an account in his name if he's the breadwinner, all of the accounts.
Speaker 1:in some instances, all the accounts, like you said, they don't even have their own. The women, the wives, don't even have their own credit card at the. We see this. I'm so glad you brought this up because we have discussed this on other episodes that we had. In fact, we just did one.
Speaker 1:That was on accountability, because me I don't know what type that is A, b, c, d, but me being whatever type of human I am, my question was because we get a lot in our fishbowl episodes and we take real questions from real women. We have gotten a lot I see it all day long of I want to get divorced. He's abusive, which, that added into it, is a disaster. I have children, but he shut my phone off. He crashed my car on purpose. He? Um, you know I have no bank account, no money. How do I? No family? Um, graduated high school, never went to college and what do I do? And I sit here and I said, ah, that is a hard place. Now where's the accountability? Where is that accountability?
Speaker 1:So the first thing that this makes me think of is ladies, for the super young women that are tuning in, even if you go to graduate high school and don't go to college, that's fine, everybody's different. Please, just get a job somewhere doing something that you can take with you. I don't care if it's being a nanny Start off babysitting for a family. I don't care if it's working at a grocery store and being a checkout person and you learn how to work the register. I don't care if it's doing some office work, right, or even a personal assistant All these things. You do not need A dog walker. Start a dog walking business. Go through, you know, and just get anything you can get so that when that day comes, you don't feel like you are absolutely helpless and have nowhere to go. Now, nobody said, being a dog walker, you're going to be able to buy a house in Long Island, but at least you can say to yourself you know what this marriage Unless you start employing other dog walkers, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:You could be a multimillionaire.
Speaker 3:Listen, you know work, work.
Speaker 1:I'm all for it. But at least then you can say to yourself when the marriage starts going to the left and you say this isn't good, I'm thinking I want to get out. You could turn around and say you know what? I could start dog walking when my kids are in school, I could, and just get a little. You just have something to fall back on, I think.
Speaker 3:one of the things, though, is that this person that you're discussing had major red flags at the beginning of their relationship. Major Because if you're at that point where you've lost all control without your own consent, then it probably shouldn't have even gotten that far, or even with your consent.
Speaker 1:What about the women? You know we're all like a lot, at least on Long Island here. I know a lot of women are like, oh, I met the wealthy guy and I've been working at my career for whatever and, oh my God, I'm so excited to get taken care of. Like I need a break. Like maybe they have a big career, maybe they're lawyers and they're working 120 hour weeks or they're you know whatever they are and or even just a regular career, and they're like you know what? I'm going to stay home now. I want to stay home, I want to be home for my kids, and they almost willingly give up that freedom, you know. But, like you said, keep the credit card in your name. Yes, keep whatever it is in your name and don't completely give it all away and have an honest conversation with your husband.
Speaker 3:what you say.
Speaker 2:But to your point, have kind of a plan you may need a break, but it doesn't mean you can't go back to it and a lot of controlling relationships when you're with a narcissist and you know they're going to want to isolate you, they're going to want to take you away from your job and from your friends and from your family and you really can't let that happen.
Speaker 2:Correct, so by having red flags, but a lot of people get themselves involved in that. Then you need to kind of push back and have a conversation and say, no, you know what, I'm going to keep my business, I'm going to do this on the side part time, yeah, but but at least you have some plan, you have some outlet and if things go awry, you can jump back in.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. I mean, I find that we've analyzed relationships all along. You know, as divorce attorneys, we're in the business of relationships honestly, you know, like that's really what we've done, because we've learned it, and I would you know, and I would say that, oh, I lost my thought.
Speaker 1:And that red flags relationship. Red flags Ladies. We've discussed this before A lot of times in the beginning. Getting back to accountability you push things to the side, make excuses.
Speaker 3:That's what I was saying, because we want to have children and we have a chemical thing We've discussed this that women go through maybe around like 26 to 36 time period if they are looking to have children. They make somewhat bad choices in men sometimes.
Speaker 2:You're right.
Speaker 3:You'll do, I did.
Speaker 2:Their agenda is not. That would be me.
Speaker 3:We're both divorced as well, for different reasons. But there is a sweet spot where you have to kind of be mindful. Is my agenda that I just want to have babies and I'm going to like go with that person. That might not be the right fit, or, even worse, controlling or abusive.
Speaker 1:Settle, or settle Right, or be scared to be alone, and not only scared to be alone, but, oh my God, do I want to start all over again? I think as you get older, for women that fear comes into play. I've been with this guy for four years. I'm engaged. Do I want? I know these are some red flags that are kind of over here, but do I really want to start all over again? Is it that bad Right?
Speaker 3:Right, right, right and.
Speaker 1:I've always discussed this. I said this the other day I don't know if I said this on another episode, but a lot of times on social media too. You'll see oh, you're 37. You're 40. You're 45. You're 47. You know, you hit the wall. What guy is going to want you? And what do I always say to my let me hit the wall at 95 miles an hour. I would rather hit the wall and die alone than ever be in another relationship, like I was for six, seven, eight years. I'll die alone. I'll hit that wall. The minute I see a red flag, now I hop out of it. You know, I don't even get involved in it.
Speaker 2:I like analyze the red flags, if there are any, before I even step foot near it you know Well the other side of that too, which we see a lot, are kind of like great divorces where people because we share the same mind. I know we can speak telepathically but that's what you need when you know, you have people who come into our office that have been married for forever and I'm like at this point.
Speaker 1:you're leaving now.
Speaker 2:Now's the day, Today's the time and I'll never forget this one gentleman. I obviously won't say his name, but he said to me. He said you know, my wife nagged me to death and I just want to live the rest of my life happy and in peace. And I said OK, I mean, who can argue that? But I have, you know people who come in all the time and they'll say, you know, is it worth it?
Speaker 2:Does it make sense for me now my kids have five more years before they're emancipated to pay child support, or you know? And then it comes down to your point Well, do you want to be happy and at peace and come into perhaps an empty house, but be happy? You might be as happy as you can possibly be in those four walls.
Speaker 1:My peace is like no other. I love it. My peace, comparatively, if what we're comparing it to is before to now, oh, it's wonderful. You're right, it is absolutely wonderful. And, ladies, if you're not peaceful in your life, you're fighting, walking on eggshells. You know, being gaslit, being blamed, being made fun of the way you dress your hair, your nails, your this because that's what I got it is worth it the peace.
Speaker 2:And Alisa and I talk about it a lot. You know people who are scared to leave and are scared to get divorced and they say, well, what is this going to do to my kids? Where you have children who are not little, little and they're older, and we kind of counsel people Obviously it's their decision, but your children are impressionable.
Speaker 2:And if you're in that type of relationship where you're being picked on and you're being belittled. What are you teaching your daughter or your son or your son? This is how you can treat women or your daughter. This is what you should expect from a man. It's not setting. You want your children to see a healthy relationship, because that's what you want for them, and if you can't, you're better off having them see none of it, and at least you left.
Speaker 1:And that's a good point. Now here's another question that some women might have going on that topic. They're married. It's not a good. Let's say, they're married to the narcissist it's not good. The children are old enough to know eight, nine, 10, old enough to know what's going on. And now what I would be nervous about is now when we go to court, how are the children protected? So here you have the man that's saying you know, you're going to wear that pink lipstick today and you're going to wear that shirt. You look like a whore, you're a piece of shit, you're blank, blank, blank. And now the mother's like is he going to get 50% custody? Are my kids going to have to go there every other weekend? See, that would be my fear.
Speaker 3:You do lose that control.
Speaker 1:What, what, how bad does it have to be? Where's that line that the judge says this isn't good for the child? They're not going to do this?
Speaker 3:Where's that line?
Speaker 3:I will find in narcissistic type relationships where a woman is married to a narcissist, they will fight even harder for the children because you left and they don't have the control. So a narcissist most of the time will threaten divorce always but never really commit to it, because they like the optics of the family and would be something that would, you know, change and be a reflection on them if they were going through a divorce. So they might threaten it in conversation or to intimidate somebody, but they might never do it. Eventually you might decide that you're going to take your power back and you're going to make a decision that is right for you and your family and your life and you're going to leave. And now he is not going to let anything go Like. He will fight tooth and nail for the kids. And I guess, karen, I'll have you answer more about the thing with the custody and the unfortunate, you know, situation that happens with Like, because I know a lot of women.
Speaker 1:I see a lot of questions on social media pertaining to this. They're like he's bad for them. I protect them and I make it. When the fight happens and when he goes off on his tangent. I'm there to protect what they believe is protecting. I'm there to okay, kids, come on, let's go down the basement. Okay, kids, let's go get some ice cream. We'll bring you whatever that is. I'm making something up to diffuse it. Now, once I go to court with these kids and I say I'm leaving you, what is this? What's that line? What's that line in the sand? Is this judge just going to say, well, he's not a tumbling alcoholic and heroin user, so the kids have to go with them every other weekend? And now my son is, you know, coming home and turning around to me the next week and saying you dumb bitch, you're wearing that shirt and repeating it and learning all the traits from this.
Speaker 2:Well, at the very beginning, once you're going through a divorce, the children, if they're in that type of situation and you're fighting for custody, they're going to get a lawyer, they're going to get their own lawyer who has their own voice. And the interesting thing and I don't know that I necessarily agree with it, but it's our law and I can't change it they, unless the child is so young that they have to substitute judgment like a seven-month-old, they're going to advocate for what this child wants to judgment like a seven month old. They're going to advocate for what this child wants. And the tricky part on the other side of that is, let's just say you have a child who's super manipulative and kind of gets what's going on and say, well, I want to live with dad because I could eat, you know, chocolate for breakfast and watch TV and do whatever I want.
Speaker 2:And you know, and that lawyer has to go in there and advocate for that, which is frightening. But to your initial question if you do have this kind of setting and you have a scary father who you know is, you know, flies off the handle, if they tell their attorney that our courts are very children-centric and they're really going to defer a lot, even though that attorney is just another attorney just like me, or the other side. They're going to give them a lot more. They're going to listen a little bit more.
Speaker 2:So if these children are comfortable enough advocating for themselves and telling their lawyer what's really going on, they will absolutely get protection. What you need to be scared of are those children who are scared to tell the truth and who are scared of the repercussions and feel a certain way and then they're not being properly advocated for.
Speaker 2:And that's when you're going to end up in a custody situation, but hopefully again you're armed with ammunition If there is violence. You have pictures of the broken iPad. You have pictures of the fist through the wall. You have perhaps audio that you're not keeping on your phone for him to clear out.
Speaker 2:You're giving them to a confidant, a friend, where they're going to remain safe and you could use them for a rainy day should you ever need it, because you're going to need all of those things. We have people all the time. I had so much, he took my phone.
Speaker 3:He wiped out my account and it's gone. Send it to your friend if you have all that stuff, because you never know when you're going to need it.
Speaker 1:Interesting, good tip, ladies Make sure your mother, your sister, somebody that you trust A hundred percent, your cousin, best friend, has all that information, so it can't get lost. Print it out, give it to somebody something Right?
Speaker 3:Right yeah, and just talking about the custody thing we were also speaking about. On the flip side, if you are preparing for what we call a custody battle, I hate that term. It sucks, but it's true. Sometimes. Be careful of your own social media, right. So we see a lot of the times, like you know, you go out with your friends and you post all this stuff and you're at bars Now the other person, the narcissist that you're trying to divorce and prove yourself to.
Speaker 3:You don't have clean hands either, right, so you have your wine glass. You know you're going here, you're going there. Be very careful what you post on social media. If you are going to find yourself in that type of a situation where you think is coming down the pipe. Be very private. Don't do things that you know you wouldn't want to face you in court on your Instagram post.
Speaker 2:If you feel like your marriage may be going in a direction and you may end up in a custody battle, you really need to pare things down and make sure everything is just squeaky clean. And if you're going through a custody case and you're in a winning position, I tell my clients all the time it's your case to lose, because you wouldn't believe how many times someone is in a superior position and, because of their actions during the litigation, they find themselves on the other side. Sometimes it is through social media, sometimes it's written texts or recordings. You don't. You know. We're in a state where you could record anything as long as one party to the conversation knows it. So if your spouse is really kind of trying to set you up and bait you, and they have all these recordings and you have no idea, you didn't even know you're going to be getting divorced.
Speaker 1:It's like Johnny Depp and Amber Heard All those recordings that I watched that she had him.
Speaker 3:Right, right, yeah, you have to be careful. And so once you sort of divorce that narcissist like, or get your power back, so to speak, your personality sometimes changes and now you become more combative than you really realize you are, because you're just seeing it and far but that could turn on you you really have.
Speaker 1:It's even a manipulation in and of itself that you just have to be careful about okay, um, but at least there's hope that women will know that, if you know, if they're scared that these children are gonna, they're gonna lose their children to a bad parent or somebody that's ill, a narcissist, bipolar, whatever the situation is, that at least the court system, if the children are old enough to advocate for themselves, will take that into account and listen to it, and that hopefully, you've raised your children all along to tell the truth and to advocate.
Speaker 2:We tell our children all the time don't be a good victim in an abduction situation and you have to advocate for yourself. I can't always be there to tell someone what you need. You have to do it from a young age and I think that with those skills if that's how they're raised should they find themselves in this unfortunate situation they're going to, they're going to advocate for themselves and talk to this attorney and say what's really going on and tell the truth, which is helpful.
Speaker 3:And a lot of you know. A lot of times we have women who are maybe in this type of situation and they bring up the idea of going through mediation. Like what's the difference between if I want to mediate with my spouse versus having representation as a divorce attorney? And if you are in that type of a power struggle with your spouse, mediation probably is not the best idea for you, but it would probably, by the narcissist, be brought up as the only solution because they're going to want to rule the way your divorce process goes too right. So they're going to say we're only seeing a mediator, I'm only seeing a mediator, and people ask me like what, what is that and what the difference is? And look, mediation is a is a good process if it's workable in your situation. A lot of times I don't think people even know they just put that word out. I think a lot of people just say I want to only mediate because they think it's going to be less costly.
Speaker 3:It's going to be less adversarial and in many situations it's just the opposite. You're now sitting at a table and let's say that you're the mediator. You don't have to be a lawyer first of all to mediate, but you should have some credentials. You're definitely not my lawyer, you're not her lawyer. You're just listening to us and if one person can position their power or exert power on the other, then you're openly and knowingly engaging in some type of a conflict situation.
Speaker 2:That can be hard and difficult Because the goal of mediation is to bring two people to center. It doesn't mean that that center has to be fair.
Speaker 2:And if you're walking into mediation and you don't know your rights. So I always say mediation may be a good process if there aren't major valuation issues, Like if you have a business that needs to be valued and distributed, mediation is not necessarily for you because you don't even have a number on that Right. But if you go in and you meet with an attorney in advance and you have kind of your ammunition, you know your rights and you could advocate for yourself, you can go in and it could be a workable process and then an attorney will review it at the end. But if you have no clue, I mean you know as a mediator to do your job, you're not supposed to get in the way of someone's settlement. So if you have someone who's agreeing to something, it's not my job to say you just gave up his police pension, Are you crazy? But I want to. But that's not really the goal of a mediator and when I was in law school-, so you have no protection in essence, unless you speak to a lawyer first or during the process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I'm not a lawyer. If I were to speak to a lawyer and I'm not a lawyer I don't know all the ins and outs of specific topics when it comes to marriage assets. You know specific topics when it comes to marriage assets children, homes, bank accounts. Who knows? I don't know what the law is. I know what I want, but I don't know what the law is which I would imagine most women don't Right.
Speaker 3:So if and I always say you could still you could have an attorney and he could have an attorney and you could still get to an amicable resolution. Just because you're seeing a lawyer doesn't mean that we all want to just like battle. Yeah, and it's somewhat of a. And then you also don't have to be like the front person for like your positions, because you could say something and then you're going back home with this person, right, that you know most of the time and everybody always says that you know do?
Speaker 2:we have to live together through this whole process and it's difficult.
Speaker 3:Yes, you do, yes, you do, yes, you do. Unless, look, unless somebody's kicked out of a house because of violence, or someone moves out voluntarily, voluntarily, then you're you're with this person that you're dealing with.
Speaker 1:All the time and that's you know, and I think you have to know. I think it's so important to know, or try to know, who you're dealing with, Because how they are today right, how they are the day you got engaged obviously is not how they are today when you're going through divorce or mediation, and is not going to be the way they are five years from now after you sign this piece of paper. It's still going to change. You want to marry the nice guy?
Speaker 2:right.
Speaker 3:Well, in elise's famous words, you can judge a couple not by, uh, not by how you know when they get along, but how they argue. I mean, the way that you do conflict resolution in your relationship is is the telltale sign of how you're going to make things and how things are going to work in your relationship. And if you don't't really have, you know, it's like it's that communication, like what is communication and how do we voice things that bother us and also how do we get over things that don't and don't hold grudges? I mean, you know there's a really fine balance in maintaining a relationship. It's work all the time.
Speaker 1:And I, yeah, and I think it's so important too because I know a lot of even my girlfriends that have gotten divorced. There were certain things that they were like, well, he would never do that. I mean, let's I don't know, I'm picking something stupid. Let's say camp, camp here in Long Island could be really expensive. Right, it could be 20 grand, 10 grand per kid. Oh well, he would never not give me half the money for you know, and keep poor child A home and only send poor child B to camp. And guess what, ladies? Yes, he would. Yes, he would, after he finds his new girlfriend, who's 47, with three kids under the age of 13. Right, priorities change.
Speaker 1:Yes priorities change don't they?
Speaker 3:They change.
Speaker 1:And if they find that girlfriend that starts in his ear about certain things and gets the whole dynamic to change, or he gets the girlfriend, and now you know the fourth kid's coming with the girlfriend, or you get the boyfriend and he doesn't like it, right?
Speaker 3:Yes, that can also be a thing, and he could now start withholding things because he doesn't like another man in his house, or you know or something like that there, because I, I I'm guilty of not doing this.
Speaker 1:When you're sitting there and you're discussing, you know, oh well, you know out of network, out of network, you know doctors, when you go to the hospital, well, anything out of network I'm responsible for, and he was like I wouldn't. I mean, of course, if our son goes to the hospital and something happens, I would never not Then put it on paper, right?
Speaker 3:Right, you know.
Speaker 1:So be smart with that too. Today is not, there's tomorrow, there's college, there's you know, other things. There's maybe the child's four, and when they're 10, they're going to want to go to camp. There's, when they get to ninth and tenth grade, they want a MacBook. I'm just saying look ahead, sweet 16, car college.
Speaker 3:But that's why, if there are certain things that you want to give your child, going back to that you have to prepare yourself as a woman to be able to pay it or make those decisions and stand by them on your own, because you want to do them for your kids, because maybe you can't rely on everything being covered. You know, certainly like a sweet 16. I mean, I do have some clients did do put things like bar and bat mitzvahs in their agreement.
Speaker 1:Because you know what I feel like it's. You know, sometimes you get that parent that in the end, like I said, that gets the girlfriend or remarries or whatever, and then you have the kids and I think that's. I'm not there yet, but I would think that that's a very hard position to be in. Hey mom, all the other girls are having sweet 16s. I want a sweet 16. Rightfully so.
Speaker 1:Just like we all want weddings and we all want birthday parties and we all want, you know, sweet 16s. But now does that all rely? Now that all relies on me, like let's say I'm not a lawyer, let's say I'm a school teacher and I'm making you know whatever. And it's so now because this son of a bitch father doesn't, it doesn't even want to pay half of the sweet 16, now I'm involved for the whole payment of the sweet 16. You know it's a sad position to be in because the kid doesn't know any different. But now, on top of paying you $20,000 in taxes and your mortgage and your house and whatever else you're paying because he doesn't pay any of that, now the sweet 16 or the car, what she's going to want? A car, everybody's got a car, at least you're on Long Island. I mean not everybody, but everybody. When they pass their driver's test right, you're happy, you get a car. He's not going to split half with you. Now you're responsible for that to the poor kid.
Speaker 3:You can put those things in agreements, but it's a negotiated point and what I would always say is that if he doesn't agree, you don't get it right. A court's not going to put a car provision in their order or a sweet 16 provision. But if you add a point where you can negotiate some of these out of you know sort stuff, maybe he's in a rush to get divorced because he does have that new girlfriend and he's, you know, says all right, just put it in. I mean, that could happen. I would think about these things.
Speaker 1:Those are important things to put in. You can put. Can you put half and half?
Speaker 3:So I could say, for example, I have a provision in an agreement that was asked for where it was a bar mitzvahs, and they split it, capped at like $30,000 or something like that. So there's a financial control and maybe that father only knows he has $15,000 of exposure and he can plan for it or vice versa. But yeah, and vehicles and insurance, but it really has to be agreed to. It's not something that if he doesn't agree, but it's always better to ask and here's another question.
Speaker 1:Let's say some of our listeners are already divorced or signed this divorce agreement, or have been divorced six months, let's say a year, two years and they're listening to the show and they're like, oh my gosh, I didn't think of preschool that you have to pay for, or camp. Can they come back to you with that agreement and change?
Speaker 2:it If you have consent. If you don't have consent, you're not going to be able to change it. I mean, the only exception would be, like you said, like nursery school or something like that. That is a statutory add on, if it's just altogether absent from your agreement, like it wasn't negotiated at all, or child care.
Speaker 2:Child care is also a statutory add-on. So if those things just weren't in there, that's something that you could go back and request. Unless you specifically agreed that there shall be no contribution toward child care or each party will be responsible for their own during their own parenting time, then you have dealt with it. But you know there's always changes. Child support is a little different depending on every agreement. You know it's not all the same, but there are ways to modify over time with child support and if you don't have college.
Speaker 3:Obviously college isn't necessarily ripe. If you have a three-year-old right, it's not even on, you know. So you can go back when your child's in high school and get that. But these things we're talking about right now like sweet 16s bat mitzvahs cars Camp Camp can be addressed if you need it for childcare.
Speaker 2:But again, then there's reasonableness. It might not be the $15,000 camp, right? It might not be sleepaway camp. You could argue that it's used for childcare if you are employed.
Speaker 3:So I mean, the more you could think about your lifestyle at the time and kind of talk to your lawyer about it. I guess that's, you know, the most important thing to do, you know, to sort of protect yourself from these type of things. But, like you had said you also, then even if you have these things in the agreement and I know you had mentioned this it does sometimes say based upon consent, correct, so you still have that Okay what have I?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we usually like to say neither party shall unreasonably withhold their consent. So that that's very instrumental, because then you can go back to court and say my son's gone to the same camp for his entire life and now all of a sudden he's withholding consent and there's no basis. He has the ability to pay, he just doesn't want him to go and he's mad at me. And then the court has the ability to say he's withholding his consent, the child's going to go because, again, they're very children centric. So who's going to rip this child out of a camp that they've attended forever?
Speaker 1:happy we got to do this. Yes, thank you for having us. Thank you so much for stopping by and we have to have you on again. You have to address other topics. Maybe we'll get some questions. If you have any questions that you would like to um address that we didn't cover, please do dm us and, uh, we will get them together and maybe we could do this again with maybe other questions that our viewers have.
Speaker 3:That would be great, we would love to. Yeah, okay, great, it would be fun, all right.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you for listening, ladies and gents, and we will see you soon. Goodbye, bye.
Speaker 3:Dating, daycare, the only show that matters. Tell all your friends.
