Dating Daycare
Welcome to "Dating Daycare," the ultimate safe space for women navigating the unpredictable world of modern dating. Join hosts Melissa Firpo and Allison Waterman as they dish out candid advice, share hilarious anecdotes, and tackle the toughest dating dilemmas faced by women today.
In a dating landscape filled with frogs disguised as princes and a jungle of jerks, Melissa and Allison offer a nurturing haven where women can laugh, learn, and empower each other to find love on their own terms. From ghosting to breadcrumbing, from disastrous first dates to navigating online profiles, "Dating Daycare" covers it all with wit, wisdom, and plenty of wine.
With Melissa's no-nonsense approach and Allison's comedic charm, each episode feels like a heart-to-heart chat with your best girlfriends over brunch. Whether you're swiping left or swiping right, "Dating Daycare" is your go-to guide for surviving and thriving in the wild world of modern romance.
So grab your favorite beverage, kick back, and join Melissa and Allison as they navigate the highs, lows, and hilarities of dating life. Because when it comes to matters of the heart, everyone could use a little TLC from "Dating Daycare.
Dating Daycare
GUEST INTERVIEW w/ Katie Ladner : BOUNDARIES & NARCISSISM "empowering women to thrive in toxic relationships"
Licensed mental health counselor Katie Ladner joins us to unpack the often-misunderstood concept of narcissism in relationships. Discover the difference between the clinical definition of narcissistic personality disorder and the everyday misuse of the term. We navigate through the distinct traits of narcissists, like grandiosity and charm, and explore why these individuals often project a different public persona. Through engaging examples, Katie helps us identify signs of narcissism in relationships, while also addressing the unique challenges in treating this complex disorder.
Setting healthy boundaries is crucial, particularly for women encountering toxic dynamics. We highlight the importance of emotional boundaries and how they are as essential as the physical ones we often learn about in childhood. With humor and insightful analogies, we stress the importance of personal growth and self-reflection before diving into new relationships. Katie shares her wisdom on how self-worth and confidence are key to establishing and maintaining these boundaries, encouraging listeners to prioritize their own well-being.
As we delve into the unique challenges faced by single mothers, Katie provides personal insights on setting boundaries post-divorce. We discuss the trials of co-parenting with an unaccountable ex-partner and the emotional toll it takes. Our conversation sheds light on the accessibility and benefits of therapy for single mothers, emphasizing the role of assertive communication and self-care. Through Katie's personal stories, we learn about the resilience required to navigate single motherhood while maintaining one's own mental and emotional health.
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Hello and welcome back to Dating Daycare. I'm Melissa, I'm Allison and we are here to help you navigate through the jungle of jerks, ladies, and today we have an awesome guest. I'm so excited. I'll let her introduce herself to you.
Speaker 3:Hi, I'm Katie Ladner. I'm a licensed mental health counselor. I own a practice here in New York all virtual and I'm very excited to be here.
Speaker 1:We are excited to have you, katie. So today we are going to go over a few hot topics and we thought that having an actual therapist here actually you also have a website, right?
Speaker 3:Yes, peacefulmindcounselingnycom.
Speaker 1:So, ladies, if you think that you need some therapy or some help, somebody to talk to relationship issues, marriage issues, any of those, you cover it all right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. I just wanted to ask you just for clarification, that a lot of your patient base is women and talking about relationship issues.
Speaker 3:Yes, primarily women do have a couple males I see, but listen, a lot of times the reason people come to therapy it's communication issues and relationship issues. So yeah, it's my bread and butter, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, great. So we wanted to start with the buzzword narcissist. Can you please, because you know what we find that everybody's a narcissist.
Speaker 2:You know now.
Speaker 1:I print out these fishbowl things and you just see online talking about everybody is labeled a narcissist. So I was saying before you know and you just see online talking about everybody is labeled a narcissist.
Speaker 1:So I was saying before I want to know what are the ingredients, so to say that you need in order to be categorized as a narcissist, it's almost like I was explaining murder For you to be criminal, right, for you to have murder, you have to have a dead body. You can't have a dead rat, you can't have a dead lizard, he can't have a dead dog. You actually need a dead body, like there are certain ingredients you need to be convicted of murder Right.
Speaker 1:Intent, a dead body, motive, right. So what are those things that we need to?
Speaker 2:say the clinical definition.
Speaker 3:So I think, well, so, starting from so, narcissus was a Greek god and he fell in a pond because he was looking at his reflection in the pond like it was a mirror, because he was obsessed with himself. And then he fell in and died and I don't know. I think flowers or something were named after him. So he was like forever around because he was just a grandiose jerk apparently. So that's sort of where the term came from. And, like you were saying, everyone's got a narcissistic ex-boyfriend, ex-husband, father, brother. You know a person can have narcissistic traits. If you go to a heart surgeon and he says, listen, I'm the best cardiologist you know, you want to hear that. That may border on oh, this guy's kind of narcissistic, but like no, I want to hear that if I'm going in for heart surgery, like I want someone to be bragging about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like confident, like I want him to be, like no, no, you're here because I'm the best. But you know, narcissistic personality disorder is a disorder in the DSM, you know, and it is it's personality based, it's some, and it's very difficult to treat in therapy. It's someone who has a very difficult to treat in therapy. It's someone who has a major, elevated sense of self. They're grandiose. They generally are very successful, as far as you know, financially successful, which I think is maybe a reason why women or people gravitate towards it Right right them.
Speaker 2:Right, right Charismatic.
Speaker 3:Charismatic that was absolutely charming as hell, like super charming. I'll hear my patients, you know, if they were married to or dated lawyers or doctors or NYPD or FDNY like these charming dudes, like heroic and charming, but then at home they were just Opposite, total opposite. Yeah, it's like my ex.
Speaker 1:Everybody loves him. At work I mean charming Like everybody's, like oh my God. And then at home I was like oh, my God you know, like he's nothing, like he is at work at home. Nothing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and, like I said, it's just difficult because it's so innate inside of of a person, and women can have this too. I don't, I, I really don't want to just stereotype, but however, it appears that it is more prevalent prevalent in men, more noticed in males. Um, maybe they get away with it more, I I hate to put it that way, but maybe they get away with it more. I hate to put it that way, but maybe they get away with it more because you're masculine versus feminine Right which is so sad.
Speaker 3:It's very sad.
Speaker 1:But if I came to you and started describing my ex, what would be the telltale sign that he's a narcissist?
Speaker 3:Top three, top three Wow, good question um the charming, like you said, like that charming, like one way on the outside and then when he's at the barbecue, he's one way, and then when you're home alone with him, he's another way, right?
Speaker 3:that would be a telltale sign. Um, I hear and this is sort of anecdotal, but, but this, um, the concept of, like he lectures me, my husband stands over and lectures me, or sends these massive texts, these, you know, these, these monologue texts, like it's, this lecturing, because they kind of need to puff their chest out In a way. That's, that's a telltale, that's a sign, a sign, you know, I shouldn't say telltale, but it is a sign. What about always needing accolades, Absolutely validation, accolades Like you're so, whatever, you're so successful, you're so sexy, you're so this, and if they don't get it, they're like they feed off of that.
Speaker 3:Yes, they feed off of it their egos need to be stroked constantly. Very egocentric. Sometimes there's a substance abuse component with narcissism. There's a high rate of substance abuse with narcissistic personality disorder. Sort of it's like seeking that thrill what else are telltale, charming, needing that validation because there's like an insecure little kid in there.
Speaker 1:And what about always putting the woman down?
Speaker 3:Yes, well, because it's like a bully Like, it's like a kid, like a bully, like let me put her or him down, because it makes me feel better about myself. It's really, it's sad. And there is, some say, a hereditary component. So if you know, and again, if your ex-husband's mom or dad had some of those traits, that can be carried down also.
Speaker 1:And what about?
Speaker 3:very triggered. It's another buzzword triggered. Nothing wrong with it, but go ahead.
Speaker 1:Let me give you an example. Let's say we're all going to the pool, right, and we have suntan lotion, and the husband comes in and he's like, oh, I gotta go. I gotta go to CVS and go get, you know, suntan lotion, something very triggered, something there's a thousand bottles of what were you triggered by that? Now you gotta leave. Or a boat oh, my stepfather used to have a boat. He was, you know, he was such a jerk and made me wax the boat every summer and blah, blah. All we did was pass the marina Like, and all of a sudden now, from passing these beautiful boats in this marina in Florida, you're telling me about a horrible experience, about waxing a boat every day 40 years ago when you, you know, when you were 10 years old and now you're in a bad mood all we did was drive by the marina, triggered, triggered yes, triggered and and it's, it's almost um, like a like, a like control, like whether it's all right, I gotta go get different suntan lotion.
Speaker 3:That's, there's a control. There's 20 bottles. Yeah, why do you have to leave? There's a, there's a control. And it's funny, yes, it's triggered, but it's also like, clearly that person didn't work through whatever issues they had with stepdad from 40 years ago and it's like you can always, you know, so then his day is ruined and then all, then everybody's day is ruined, right, right, that's another component with narcissism, like it's like I's trying to control his environment to make himself feel comfortable at the expense of everyone else, absolutely.
Speaker 3:And another thing is I'll hear women say that you know, especially if they got out of a marriage or a long-term relationship with someone who's narcissistic or has those traits, their world became very little because of the ex-husband um, meaning they maybe no one wanted to hang out with that their friendships and family relationships.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because guess what other couples do not want to hang out with that? No, they just don't. So they slowly isolate them. Yeah they.
Speaker 3:It's sad they, their women, are isolated. They're like, wait, it was 10 years and I hadn't seen my college friends or this or that, and you know, maybe it was because of the ex-husband like making their world smaller. It's a sense of control.
Speaker 1:It's all about control.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like lecturing. I've had patients, I see a lot of health care providers and love my nurses and my doctors, who I see I really do, and I think also with healthcare providers there's such an empathy. So I think it seems when you're empathetic, kind of these narcissistic males make gravity or vice versa, or you're finding them. One may argue it's sad, but I'll hear women say like Katie, I'm a nurse and I'm clocking into work and my husband calls me and is lecturing me about I didn't empty the dishwasher, correct? I hear this like, especially the dishwasher, I didn't do this Like and he's freaking lecturing me and I'm like I just clocked in and it's the ER and it's crazy, but that is on their minds. So they're like triggered like the boat, like I gotta hyper focus and and just and nag the hell out of her and ruin her day. Um, because I just don't care.
Speaker 1:There's like a lack of there's a lack of empathy and also, I think, people that have disorders, whether it's when they're predatory, predatory like when pray they pray on the weak. Yes, absolutely, 100%, 100%. They see what they can get away with slowly and then it gets worse and worse. That's why everybody, obviously you don't get with the person day one, male or female, with these horrific traits, because if it happened you'd be like what the hell?
Speaker 1:is wrong with that person like we just passed a marina and we're on our first date and they hide it right they hide it well, absolutely, little by little it comes out right and then, once before you know it, you're yes, and then when, and you know what I?
Speaker 1:almost feel like they hide it up until you're trapped. It's very strategic. I don't know, because I am not a narcissist, but it's almost like they let it all come out. Once you're living with them and you have a child already Right, and you've been a stay-at-home mom for five years Right your vulnerability has increased so, and then it gets really bad, like when they have you at the like trapped. That's when they let it all go. Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3:It's very strategic I found, yes, it is. And the charming piece, it's a great example. You know, it's it for many, many women. It's wonderful to be able to stay at home and raise the children, and you know, again, wonderful for many. And yet it puts you in a vulnerable position. It does.
Speaker 1:Women always keep your own bank account, oh we say that all the time we're not being from divorce. No, we always say that. I always say that, Ladies, even if you're a stay-at-home mom, you know and you— the last episode with the attorney is really good.
Speaker 2:Yes, with our attorney.
Speaker 1:Yep, even if you know you have either—you're in control of the money. If you're not working, you know what $15, $10, $25 a week, at least that when day you know, 8,540 comes you at least don't feel completely trapped, especially if you have children.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, absolutely. But yeah, the world's becoming smaller, making your world smaller and, like you said, like the charming can mask all of that.
Speaker 1:For a little while. For a little while.
Speaker 3:But a person, like we said before denial, the outside doesn't know.
Speaker 1:Right, the outside doesn't know. Right, the outside doesn't know, you know, but the charming masks it for the outside. And then can we also discuss the boundaries. So I always say this Stick. I feel like if women stuck to their boundaries most of the time not all the time, and this also depends on if the woman or the man was also abused, right.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Childhood abuse has a lot to do with this, but let's take that out for right now. Let's take that group of people out. I'm just saying you're healthy, you know average person that finds themselves years later in these toxic, whether it's narcissist or verbally abusive or physically abusive, or with somebody that is an alcoholic or a drug addict, like, let's take, you were okay and then you found yourself in this position. I feel if women stuck to their guts and their boundaries which everybody should have boundaries they wouldn't end up where they are.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and I think with boundaries it's you know your boundaries can, can change over time, like we were saying before the show, you know, we're taught, you know God willing, and hopefully you were taught when we're, when we're kids. You know physical boundaries, like no one should touch you anywhere that you don't want them to. No one should touch you where a bathing suit goes, those sort of things were taught and that's great, of course. But it's also these emotions, these emotional boundaries, that are so, so important, whether it's you know you, you only want to see someone, your dating guy, you only want to see him. Your dating guy, you only want to see him once a week because you're a little gun shy, like that's your boundary and that may change, and like there might be wiggle room over time. But that's your own boundary and I think it kind of takes confidence, self-confidence and feeling your self-love and self-worth to you knowworth, to be able to stick with a boundary.
Speaker 2:I feel like a lot of women feel they have to say yes because otherwise they'll lose the guy Right, Like they have to hook them in when they have the opportunity. And so you know what? There's a knit game on tonight, and I would really rather do that, or I'd rather knit, I'd rather rearrange my sock drawer, whatever it is. But you just feel like you're tired and you feel like you're obligated to go out because someone asked you out. Right that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think as you get older too here's another issue for the dating pool of why the way it is. As you get older and you go through all these experiences, you know you have your own trauma, your own. You know whether it's. You know there's, of course, difference between you know abuse, trauma and then been in a bad relationship trauma. But as you get older, you've experienced one, five, 10, 20. And most people do not go get themselves healed before they jump into another relationship and I never understand this. Personally out so many fishbowls where these women are like either still married and already cheating in another relationship or just got divorced, or the man just got divorced or broken up with a girlfriend or boyfriend and they're hopping into a new relationship like right away when they just had this horrible experience.
Speaker 2:Like they don't know how to exist on their own. It's like kind of codependent kind of element.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and forget about the codependency. But what about all the other things that they haven't fixed that are piled on? It's almost like never doing the laundry and just keep piling the dirty laundry on top of you.
Speaker 1:Know, I always say to my daughter when she's asked me like a question about school or friendship, and you know, being a mom, I just you know right, you're older, you're wiser I always say let me give you this analogy, and this is a perfect analogy for dating too. I say, if I peed in a cup, perfect technology for dating too. I say, if I peed, in a cup.
Speaker 3:Can't wait for this.
Speaker 1:I'm so curious If I peed in a cup, ladies and gents, and added sugar to the cup and gave it to you, is it still piss?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm using that.
Speaker 1:It's a good one. And then I add a little food coloring and a bay leaf right, because I'm a chef and a little cinnamon and I gave you the cup. Does it change it from the piss that it is from the pee, and my daughter goes no.
Speaker 2:I go exactly. Did you make that up yourself, yeah, or did your bubba give that?
Speaker 3:to you like your grandma. No, I made it up. That's hysterical, but I'm like it's still a cup of pee. That's hysterical.
Speaker 1:But I'm like it's still a cup of pee. The only way this cup of pee is changing is if I physically pour it out. Wash the cup, put the cup treats you horribly. The man that's married, dating you but cheating on his wife. Add sugar to that, do you?
Speaker 2:think he's not going to cheat on you.
Speaker 1:It's still that Right, it's still piss.
Speaker 3:It's still piss I love that actually Right, it's brilliant, I do.
Speaker 1:I love that it was just an easy analogy, I think, for my 10-year-old to understand when she's talking about friends that are snakes.
Speaker 2:It's easy for 30, 45, 47-year-olds to understand, because there are women that have a hard time with that concept.
Speaker 1:It's still pain, it's true, it's real and I think when a man comes to you or a woman comes to you, broken, single mom. Now you, you know everybody needs time to heal. Everybody needs time to navigate through what they've been through and just become the best version of themselves, which gives you perfect.
Speaker 1:No right, but working on yourself, yeah but she said like security and and being able to put boundaries like you should be able to do that, ladies, effortlessly. If you're going to get into a relationship and you say, okay, I've been through this, I broke up, I got divorced, I've been a single mom for two years, you should be able to go up to a man when you meet him online, on the websites or at a bar or through a friend, and you should effortlessly be able to say hi, how are you? My name's this, what do you do for oh, how do you? Oh, that's not for me. You seem like a really nice guy and I'm so glad. Allison thought we would get along together, but you know what this is. I don't date guys.
Speaker 2:It does take inner strength and what I find is that it's very easy to adhere to your boundaries. When there's a guy that you do not find attractive approaches you, you have no problem adhering to, like, oh, you're separated. Yeah, I don't do that. But if there's a guy who you find really, hot, yeah, and he's, like you know, doing it for you, but you know you make excuses.
Speaker 3:You make excuses, you make excuses. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then where do you end up? Tell us, Allison, when you make those excuses where do you end? Up.
Speaker 2:Still in the cup of piss? Yeah, in the cup of piss, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it never. It, never it doesn't work, because then it bothers you or it eats at you. Maybe they're doing something that you didn't like, or maybe they have a lifestyle that you didn't like, or maybe you made an exception you wanted kids and they didn't want any more kids. That's a huge one, right? Or and now it's five years later you've wasted five years of your time and the baby factory is closed.
Speaker 2:I know a lot of people like that personally, who have given up a lot for men who they should have gotten rid of a long time ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so boundaries is really and I'm sure, as a therapist, that you see a lot of women and a lot of men Isn't the therapy based on setting boundaries in essence?
Speaker 3:Absolutely, absolutely. And it could be, but listen, it's boundaries when dating, it's boundaries with family. It really it is. It's hard, but I think it's something we sort of maybe we weren't taught.
Speaker 2:Oh, definitely not as women. We're just taught to be good girls. Yeah, you know you're being selfish. Oh, you're not going to come to the family function. Well, you're really selfish. Right right, you know.
Speaker 3:And we always feel, I think, that we need to make excuses, like oh, I can't come to the family function because you know I'm sick, but like, no, sometimes you just don't want to go.
Speaker 1:And here's another scary thing, ladies thing, ladies when you get these women or men and they've not set, they've gotten into these toxic relationships, they've been beaten down, they've been, you know, ostracized, excluded for years. Okay, and finally, now the narcissist has left, or they left the alcoholic, or the abuser, or just your average long term, over a year or two, how long, when they come to you, does it take to heal them, to become what we just discussed, the healed person that is actually ready now to be?
Speaker 1:in a positive um healthy relationship. So, ladies, once you screw yourself up from you know from drinking piss, yeah right once you drink. The piss fits for eight, nine, four, five, two years. How long now does it you? How long now does it take now to make you?
Speaker 3:whole. Again. It's funny because the word heal you know, are any of us fully healed? Not to be hippy dippy about it, but no, we're all we should be. So it's a process it's such a process and you know a lot of women will be grieving their relationship before it's over, which I think is it's sad, but it also is like is a reality. I know for myself. You know I'm divorced and and I definitely grieved my marriage before it was over.
Speaker 1:Um, so, as far as a time frame, it's so hard to put into, you know it's hard to to, but like on average, like have you ever had somebody that lived with the narcissist uh, two kids, eight years of this abuse and came to you and was miraculously fixed in six months and didn't need you anymore?
Speaker 3:um people definitely have yeah, miraculously, yeah, it's yes, but it's denial, because they're not fixed quote-unquote. That's not what therapists do. We don't fix per se, but no. But they'll say no, but they'll say oh, I don't need you anymore. However, you know, a few weeks prior, when speaking to them, um, they were dating a guy who had similar patterns to their ex-husband, or or something.
Speaker 1:So what I'm talking about exactly? So, once you screw yourself up, how long on average does it take a person to become healed, so to say that they can go off on their own and make the right choices and not go back with another narcissistic or another alcoholic or another? Once you screw yourself up and you allow yourself to live with this abuse, what?
Speaker 3:it's hard to undo to put the toothpaste back in the tube right, and that's what I'm trying to say it's, and I don't have an average and I think, think of this all the time. It may be like if you notice any any similarities between you know a guy you're dating and your ex husband, but you still continue with that guy like major similarities like alcohol, alcohol.
Speaker 3:I go to alcohol, you know, because I'll see, I I'll hear women say, oh, but this guy's like drinking and my ex-husband did a lot. You know it's it. It it depends how much if they're going back to that similar, the similar type of person, what I love to see and it always cracks me up, even with like celebrities or your friends, when you see, you know they got, they got divorced and the person they wind up with if it's healthy and beautiful and wonderful and like rainbows and unicorns, the person they wind up with being like the complete opposite I love?
Speaker 3:I don't know that, let me guess.
Speaker 1:my ex had a girlfriend for like 18 months that he didn't tell anybody about. But I ended up seeing her and finding out about her because we had tried to get back together, which ended in shambles. Ladies, don't do that either. I tried to do it for the family, for the children, and it ended up mistake, anyway, but I ended up seeing her. I can't tell you what a 180 she is for me, isn't it funny?
Speaker 1:like mormon looking amish no, I'm telling you, like black hair, brown hair, like my nails are always crazy people. They're, they're spiked, they're crazy. Hers were like short, like yours. French manicure no like preppy, yes like tweed, like green dress she was wearing, with like these little boots Like listen, ladies, nothing wrong with it.
Speaker 3:But what it is it is. It's really funny.
Speaker 1:I mean hair straight like little, like barely no makeup. I am the queen of makeup. There is nothing more than I love than a Sephora store.
Speaker 3:You know what I'm saying, like total 180. Yeah, it's really, it's just, it's just interesting, and I'll even tell women I speak with who are divorced and dating they're like but wait, this guy. But it's in a funny way they're like well, I'm like all right, don't rule them out. Don't rule them out. You know, don't rule them out and you can keep that boundary. Like you know for myself, my ex-husband is a chef. I will never. This is my own boundary.
Speaker 3:I will never no, I'll never date someone who's in the restaurant industry, who has ever entered a restaurant, who can spell restaurant I will never like, never and it's not, and there's nothing wrong. There's nothing wrong, it's your boundary it's not like shitting on the entire industry, it's just my own boundary, like never again, because that majorly impacted our, our marriage, divorce and and our children, you know. So I'm like never, so it's just the boundary. And if so, if I'm trying to date someone and they're like, oh, I'm in the restaurant, bye.
Speaker 1:Bye, you're not for me, and that's what I mean by the healing process too. So when you, you know, I would imagine that that is a trait, that when you're treating people, that is a trait that when you're treating people that you're trying to get them to have Right that boundary making process of like me I've said this a thousand times the pot calling the kettle black. I will not date a man with young children. I get it. I have young children, don't? I know a thousand of you going to. How can you do that? I can, and watch me. Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I will not date a man with young children. I'm not brady bunching my kids, that's for me. I'm not doing it. But a mil people could look at me like you're nuts, I don't care. But I would imagine that trait. It is what almost protects you from repeating the same traumatic experience sometimes that you have before these boundaries and and learning how to set them and learning how to be okay with people saying are you nuts? Because I get that plenty, oh, absolutely plenty I get that all day long you have young kids but you're not going to date a guy.
Speaker 1:How can you be so hypocritical? How could you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah hey, listen, been there, done that. I'd rather be alone and die alone than ever do that again in my life. So that's but. But now, that's why I'm living and I'm happy and I'm thriving because I don't enter any scenarios. I don't say like allison said oh my god, that guy is so hot, he's like my perfect guy. What did it say?
Speaker 1:finance six, five blue eyes tick tock financing, but he's got a two-year-old and a three-year-old up. Sorry, you're not for me. There'll be another guy in finance, six, five blue eyes and his kids will be 19 and in college, like I.
Speaker 3:I don't, I don't budge from that and I get it and I understand I get it, just like some people. I've heard some people say um, I will, I'm divorced with x amount of kids and I'll only date someone with kids which I get it.
Speaker 1:they want a br someone with kids, because they want a Brady Bunch.
Speaker 3:They want a Brady Bunch or you know. They want someone who understands X, Y, Z, and I get it. Every relationship is different, Every ex-husband, ex-wife is different, but yeah.
Speaker 1:And then, how does like? Do you take insurance, do you not Like? How does that whole thing work? Because I know a lot of women are like. I see them write oh, but I can't afford therapy.
Speaker 2:You know what?
Speaker 1:I'm saying, and I know my daughter's therapist sometimes works with me. If it's a tough, you know, like every therapist, because you're virtual, yes.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I love that, because that means, ladies, that you could live anywhere we're in New York. That means, ladies, that you could live anywhere we're in new york, but if you live in ohio or california or wherever you are and you could just do your therapy sessions and it allows for flexibility with schedule and I know, especially for women.
Speaker 3:So I do accept some um insurances and I do sliding scale um especially for single moms.
Speaker 3:That's my, my, that's my, that's my people, yeah speak with a lot of single moms who I you know, even just coaching through boundaries with their ex-husband. It's like hysterical, like boundaries. It's like, oh, he was nice to me for a minute. I feel bad. He doesn't want to give me the full child support this month. I feel bad. It's like you gotta kind of keep that boundary and again pot calling the kettle black. I've been there, done that. But it's even those boundaries like what's healthy for your kids to witness too.
Speaker 1:Keeping those boundaries, it shows that you're not such a pushover Right and it'll make you healthier? Absolutely, because I know with me it's very different when you don't have kids. Once you have kids, it just it just seals the nail in the coffin, I like to say but you know what? Your bow and your boundaries have to change. Like you said, day one, when you're getting divorced, your boundaries are this like when. When I got divorced, so say everybody knows I was never married, but I say it because it's sort of the same thing. When my ex left originally it was kind of come over whenever you want, come. He would eat dinner with I would make food.
Speaker 1:Sit down, come in the house like I didn't have a problem with it and as time went on, that didn't end up working anymore, because he got meaner and meaner and meaner oh your nail. And start making fun of me, commenting on my clothes, commenting on my home, commenting on my hair, my nails, my boobs, the outfit I was wearing. So then another boundary had to be set. You know if you're going to come in here and insult me when I'm like you're going to drink my coffee and then and then look at me and say you know, you look like a whore today, but you're drinking my cup of coffee with milk.
Speaker 1:This isn't going to work anymore. Are also my son was sick in the hospital, so I was like my son's not coming out of the house, he's got pneumonia. You want to come over for an hour and see him? Okay, I'll go upstairs, so boundaries always need to be moved Absolutely, but you have to set them in order to. I don't need to be called a whore in my own home.
Speaker 3:No, you don't need to take that in my own home and let me tell you something.
Speaker 1:Narcissists will always push the boundaries Absolutely. So not only did I allow him in my house as a perfect example, ladies, he was in my house. My son had pneumonia. Come spend time see my son. I was up. He said okay, I'll stay for an hour. Two hours is coming up. I'm upstairs in my bedroom. He's still in the house. I'm starving, like I need to go downstairs into the kitchen where they are and have some lunch. I go downstairs in the kitchen. He turns around and goes don't you think I could have some alone time with my son, right?
Speaker 3:And there we go. Provocative that's the other characteristic of narcissists. Like provocative, pushing the boundary.
Speaker 1:You've been down here for two hours I've been upstairs. I was reading, you know, a therapy book, actually for my daughter, but I'm hungry. Now I said I need to eat In my own home. Am I supposed to get my lunch and run back upstairs and be sequestered to my bedroom? He goes. I didn't know there was a time limit. I said well, you said you were only staying an hour and I'm hungry. I'm sitting at the kitchen table and I'm going to eat my lunch. And what's the big secret? What are you talking about down here that I can't write down here for 15 minutes to eat my lunch? But that's what went. No, thank you for you know. I know I'm not allowed in the house, but thank you for letting me come in here and sit for two hours I nothing.
Speaker 1:It's why are you down here? Get back upstairs. Yeah, so the boundaries are always being pushed by them.
Speaker 3:And I think and the other piece and I've seen like memes of this and it cracks me up. You know it's like. You know I typed out an entire long nasty text to my ex-husband but then wound up sending okay instead, like it's true, it helps to not be. You know, you don't have to be wordy when responding, whether it's in person, it's so hard. There's a method called gray rock, which I love. This like a gray rock, gray is kind of a boring color. Rock is a rock is boring.
Speaker 3:So it's, it's this great method in therapy it's just act, just, you know, just neutral, like if he starts to be an ass and shit on you and just be you're not feeding into it exactly like okay, sounds good, maintain your sanity, maintain your sanity, and you don't have to be like I'm so sorry, or it doesn't have to be that like, especially in text. It's like they may text something nasty okay, sounds good, see, meet you there. Like I'll pick up the kids at 5, 15, that's it. It doesn't. I mean, believe me, the things I've won. I'll call my mother and be like.
Speaker 3:This is what I wanted to say to my ex just, just, for like two minutes, just, and I'll just go absolutely bonkers but then really, what I sent is like a thumbs up emoji, like and it's so when I tell you, of all the things I've done in life, that has been the hardest no that is hard.
Speaker 3:So hard, especially if, like, we're a little verbal New Yorkers, like that is so incredibly difficult. And I say this to my patients too. Like they're like, I want it could go either way. They wanted to say something super nasty back to their ex. Or they're like, oh, so bad, he can't afford this and I want like it's just keep it simple, keep it simple, stupid, just keep it simple. Which is so?
Speaker 1:that's the heart, that's the hardest thing it really is yeah, it's hard too, especially if you don't have verbal communication, because now I don't talk with him on the phone right there, right because that got ended because I was told to go fuck myself and hung up on every other week, so I had to end that too.
Speaker 1:So now it's just text or email, and sometimes when he'll text something like I'm going to come pick up Jagger and take him out for a little while. He just got home from the hospital. He still has pneumonia, his lungs are a mess. No, you're not, you know so, but Sometimes you have to write a paragraph. Oh, I feel like I do. You feel?
Speaker 3:like you do and I get it.
Speaker 1:You can't take him out, dr Renner, just said his lungs were a mess.
Speaker 2:He just got out of the hospital Wednesday. Yes, yes, you feel like you have to explain yourself, because I'm not being a bitch.
Speaker 1:I'm doing it because I'm scared he's going to relapse.
Speaker 3:Of course, of course, but I know gonna realize, of course, of course, but I know, and that's, it's it, and it's almost like amazing. It's like duh, he has pneumonia. Like it's, like you feel, like you're dealing with a five-year-old right. Right, yes, but it's like, it's just just the facts, like just the facts like jagger still has has pneumonia. He shouldn't, you know, leave the house until friday. Thanks, period.
Speaker 1:I have to work on that, so so hard.
Speaker 2:Write it in your notes like go off in your notes and then delete it. Yes, right, don't copy and paste it and put it in.
Speaker 3:Yes, absolutely, absolutely, and that is listen. There's so many things, I'm sure, especially in the beginning of divorce, a lot of us have said, and I regret so much.
Speaker 1:No, I don't regret anything. No, push it.
Speaker 2:But I mean in a different world, maybe regret some things, but you know, but looking back I wish I could have just been like to like school. A guy like teach him a lesson yeah. Like you, you cancel last minute twice on me. Well, I'll tell you why you can't do that and why it's wrong and what you need to do next time. They don't care, right.
Speaker 1:They don't care. No, and you're right when I write the whole paragraph of why a child with pneumonia shouldn't be taken outside. He don't give a shit.
Speaker 2:No, he doesn't. I know he doesn't give a shit.
Speaker 1:No, no no, he couldn't. But you would figure a 56-year-old man, no one would figure Right right. But see narcissists make decisions based on what their needs are, not the children's needs, absolutely. And then you're fighting that all day long too.
Speaker 3:All day long all day long, all day long, all day long. And there's and listen, there's like, especially with the, the ex-ex-husband, ex, you know, the father figure who, at whatever that means to you, in in a child's life it can go. I'll see some of the you know facebook posts that are he wants full custody, he's fighting for that. He's. You know it's either that like this, like major fighting this, like such overt narcissism, or there's the opposite, where they move far away, have minimal contact with the children, which is a lot easier I would think it would be a lot easier or they're knocking on your door or texting you like I want to take him out, even though he has pneumonia.
Speaker 3:So it's like it's you can't win you can't win and there's no um accountability, no self-awareness and just no accountability. No, I'm sorry or it's. I'm sorry, but you know the the sorry is disingenuous. Sorry, but you're being a bitch or I'm. You know it's just not genuine.
Speaker 2:You feel this way, right, right, so it's my favorite. What's the?
Speaker 1:type of therapy. So if, if there are ladies out there that are in these toxic, abusive relationships and they're like, oh you know, I think I need some help with boundaries and help with this, they would just call you and you would schedule an online what is it? An hour 45 minute sessions.
Speaker 3:I do a 15 or so minute consultation and, if we're a good fit, yeah, work with people, schedule schedule, because I see a lot of people with changing schedules if they do 12 hour shifts or 10 hour shifts that are kind of, you know, different each week. A lot of assertive communication, training, which is really difficult, again, as women were taught like okay, sure, no problem, or I'm sorry. This passive communication that a lot of us are taught. So we work on a lot of us being assertive, whether it's with, you know, ex-husbands or ex-partners, or just even at work.
Speaker 3:Like yeah, it's sad, even at work with a mean manager, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or, you know, saying no to answering emails, setting boundaries to not answering emails at midnight, which I used to do in a former life, you know holidays midnight emails.
Speaker 3:Especially because we have access, obviously, to our phones all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah and do you treat children?
Speaker 3:I do see some children more so, some teenagers like high school years, yeah some. But I try to kind of keep my hours during the day because I have little ones and I'm their only caregiver besides my lovely parents who help. So I try to work kind of during the day and stick to less evening hours. Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:All right. So and then are there other, like genres that you cover also, that if there are women or men besides relationship, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Communication relationships, a lot of compassion fatigue. So I see a lot of health care providers. I'm actually very slowly chipping away at my dissertation, which is on compassion fatigue, which is like burnout, primarily in health care providers. Which is on compassion fatigue, which is like burnout, primarily in healthcare providers. But we can also have compassion fatigue if we're taking care of, you know, aging parents or even our children. It's such a big topic post COVID and how it just took a toll on people who worked in hospitals or just in healthcare in general.
Speaker 1:So, and single mom taking care of everybody? Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely Not everyone has that every other weekend schedule. Yeah, I don't. I don't either. I dream of that sometimes. I'm not going to lie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's hard.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah it is. It's hard 24-7. It really is.
Speaker 1:You're burnt out and we see a lot of fishbowls, or I see online also the single mom once again asking how do you moms do it? You know I always say this the mom is only have as many kids as you can take care of by yourself. Right, Right. I always say that too. It's like the piss cup.
Speaker 1:It's another wisdom thing to hand out there, but the women are left with working the children, the extracurricular activities, the laundry, the food shopping, the cooking, the cleaning, and the man goes off to their apartment and lives their best life, their best life. They have the same job making the same amount of money. Their careers have been withstanding for years, so they're making I don't know if you live in New York 100,000. They have new women plenty of time to date, vacations, vacations by themselves, without the children. They don't have to worry about homework, they don't have to worry about childcare If they want to go out or go on vacation or go on a date. The men become college I always say like a sophomore in college all over again, while the women are left with all the responsibility. And I get it. Most women will say but he did, and I will say the transition isn't so horrific because most of the men didn't do much anyway right when it came to.
Speaker 1:I mean, and I'll even say for the great men out there, they're working. Even if you are the best father, best husband, best everything. Normally, traditionally, at least from what I've seen the men are working at least nine to five, and that's early. I mean, my ex used to leave at 530 in the morning and get home at eight o'clock at night. If you're producing half a million dollars or more, right, and you have a big job, you are working okay. So they're not home to do all that. So all that was on your shoulders anyway, right from the beginning. But whatever little bit there was help with the lawn furniture, the pool, the, the gardener, though whatever it is he did.
Speaker 2:It's all I want to see you with an edger melissa, oh my god.
Speaker 1:Well, no, I work five jobs because I have a landscaper and I have a pool guy and I have an electrician and I have. Now I have to pay people or decide to do it on my own. And, ladies and jets, I am not doing that on my, I do enough so I pay people? No, no except when my son, you know, is sick or my kids are sick, then yes I will, but no. Once a week I have a cleaning lady come and do that.
Speaker 1:So you know what I'm trying to say Like it does all end up on your shoulders and they go and live their best single life absolutely that and I say that from the beginning.
Speaker 3:I said that women have they need.
Speaker 1:I'm telling you, almost every single mother could use therapy over that one topic.
Speaker 3:Yes, because if you sit and think about it, it's obscene. It's obscene, however, so it's funny. I always said, when I first got divorced, like he's living his best life. The words best life must have come out of my mouth a thousand times. He's living his best life. He's living his best life must have come out of my mouth a thousand times. He's living his best life. He's living his best life. However, if you look at friends and family or whatever who's gotten divorced, the ex-husband appears to decompensate in whether it's weight gain, whether it's substance use, whether it's just hot mess express, and the ex-wife tends to thrive.
Speaker 1:And it is.
Speaker 3:I'm like God damn, this is such a cliche every single time, so that he's living his best life.
Speaker 1:No choice, no choice right, he can sit on the couch, like you know what else I love? I love when my ex will be like oh my god, I'm sick. You know he's sick, let the flu covid, whatever it is. And he'll be like oh, I can't take jagger, I'm sick. And then he there he is living his best life in his apartment with his hot cup of tea. I picture Netflix and chill in his bed. Uber Eats.
Speaker 2:Uber Eats Right. And then of course, when I'm sick and have COVID.
Speaker 1:Ma, I need Ma. I'm not sitting there with my cup of tea and my Netflix, I mean, unless they're in school. Right, I'm doing homework after you know, helping them wash their hair in the shower, you know, doing all the stuff that my life continues on. But even that little bit they get to be sick and be sick. Or what about the nights that your kids are sick and they're throwing up or have pneumonia, like my kid just did? Mine too. He wasn't waking up every night and then. But then the comment oh, you're tired, you're tired like they swoop in for the good.
Speaker 3:This is another narcissistic trait, men, I hate it. I feel like I'm crapping on that.
Speaker 1:Could be women too.
Speaker 3:Women too. Yeah, actually it's funny. I do know a couple guys who are the primary caregivers of their children, and yet the woman you know will swoop in during the good time. Like, oh, parent-teacher conference. Like I'm going to swoop in but I haven't been to little Johnny's school in X amount of years.
Speaker 3:Don't even know the name of their teacher, right school in don't even know the name of their teacher, right, right. But this is, you know, it's just swooping in for the good, not the dance recital, the hockey game, the, this, the that, not the, you know the pneumonia, the throwing up from the coughing from pneumonia which I've had the last five nights, like you know. So it's, it's, they just have no idea, and yet I do the same thing. I want to like, like sometimes lecture my especially in the beginning.
Speaker 3:My ex-husband remember both my kids had strep one time and he was away and I'm like you're living your best life and like they have strep, but I'm like he's not going to change, like it's not going to get in.
Speaker 1:A lot of women just need some a little bit of just mental health counseling just based on that Just that's enough, yeah, to have to like, like if you're getting, even if you weren't married and you were just dating and a single mom and you had help, and now the man maybe moved out and you don't have help, and it's not just you, and now you're overwhelmed.
Speaker 3:Right, right, yeah, even you know boundary. I was just thinking, even if you're a woman who doesn't have children dating a guy who maybe has children, like that's a different type of boundary too. And listen, that happens Like the older we get, the pool of dating, you know, becomes smaller. So that's another you know piece of the puzzle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, all right, that's great. I think we covered.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Do you have any other questions?
Speaker 2:Yeah, right. Do you have any other questions?
Speaker 3:Yeah, just maybe as a I don't know if you have a patient base of women who have not been married, who are single, what is something like just off the top of your head, a big issue that they tend to be dealing with, and how would you recommend them navigate? Whatever that is, that's a good question, you know. An issue is, you know, sorting out who's a jerk and who's not Like where to meet men. You know, I don't know if this totally answers it. This could be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, no, this is good.
Speaker 3:It's like where to meet guys. So I mean post-COVID it's like it's a night, it's a nightmare maybe it was pre-covid. But it's like on online, where else do people go? I, you know whether it's the gym or you know not, everyone's doing that. Like it's that's a really tough piece and you know, sort of navigating who's genuine, if it's even, if it's not just dating apps but but out at a bar or restaurant. Like that's really tough. Like women being sort of gun shy and hesitant because they're afraid that they're going to be ghosted or hurt.
Speaker 3:Taking advantage of or hurt. So that's a tough one yeah.
Speaker 2:Sounds about right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it is, it's tough, and would you?
Speaker 2:would you what would you say to a patient who asks you like where do I find guys? It happens all.
Speaker 3:It's so funny it happens all the time and I'm like I really honestly don't know it's to rule out. Like yes to one avenue is like. Remember years ago, I don't. I remember my mother saying like To one avenue is like. Remember years ago, I don't know. I remember my mother saying like never meet someone at a bar, kate, like never.
Speaker 3:And I'm like and I get it, however, like to rule out an entire, like like institution like never meet someone you know at a bar or online or at a coffee shop or, you know, or at a club, like it's just don't keep yourself open, yeah be open-minded and and maybe they won't be your usual finance guy or you know your usual type, so to speak. But like, just that might be a good, that might be a good thing, don't don't rule them out you know, because you never, you just never know that's what I always say yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Just make.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because those dating apps just aren't Just aren't you know you? Still I feel like Disaster.
Speaker 2:Keep yourself open to it and we'll talk about this in other shows, but like how to set yourself up for success on an app, because there are people who like Absolutely. I always say it's exhausting. I know I get it, it is, it is, it is.
Speaker 1:Not that I've ever done it, because I won't. Everybody knows that about me. I'm working on it. No, but that new app, guys listen. I forget what the name is, but it was like Pay as you go, Pay me.
Speaker 3:Pay.
Speaker 1:I just saw it last night on TikTok. It was like Starbucks or the diner for dinner. I love that I'm going to look into it and I'm going to get back to you all on it. Yeah, I'm not.
Speaker 2:No, I'm sure.
Speaker 3:This is not for fostering relationships. I'm sure they want sex also, right. But even if they don't, but okay, so funny enough. Even if they don't but fun Okay, so funny enough. Even if they don't, maybe just like companionship.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like I don't know why I keep saying an older man, like before I say, like you know, or a person, it can be any age like just companionship, like a grown up conversation and they just want to eat a meal.
Speaker 3:If there's someone who's single, why are they paying?
Speaker 2:for it. Yeah, you'll have to follow up.
Speaker 1:I have to follow up and I have to research it and I'll get back to you guys, yeah, but okay, great, thank you. Well, thank you so much thank you, yeah so if anybody needs any little therapy, pick meups. You come out of toxic relationships. Anything having trouble at work single, don't know how to get out of something, need to set boundaries or how to communicate more effectively.
Speaker 2:Communicate In general, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Yep, yep, thank you.
Speaker 1:We have a place for you to go.
Speaker 3:Thank, you very much. I appreciate it. Oh, you're welcome.
Speaker 1:We loved having you, so thank you for joining us on Dating Daycare. We hope you learned something.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to mention where can people find us, so if they we always say contact us, they could always email us right. Datingdaycarepodcast at Gmail yes, and then we have our Facebook group yes. So if you have questions, yes, absolutely, we can put you in the fishbowl yeah, we can.
Speaker 1:You can write us a question and we can put you in the lovely fishbowl which we are going to do an episode next of that. I think everybody loves our fishbowl all right well, bye, guys, we'll see you next time. Thank you. Dating Daycare, the only show that matters. Tell all your friends.
